60: Navigating Cultural Identity: Building Bridges in the Middle School Years

Two fathers reflect on their experiences navigating cultural identity and relationships in middle school.

Jim and Aaron discuss the challenges of feeling excluded due to cultural differences and share strategies for building understanding across diverse communities.

Listeners will learn practical tips for cultivating curiosity, asking thoughtful questions, and starting respectful dialogues to bridge cultural divides.

New Generation Leader Allyship Channel

Full Transcript – Episode 60

Jim Lee  00:17

Hi, my name is Jim Lee. I grew up in the Los Angeles area with parents that immigrated to the United States in the early 70s. I was born in Korea but came when I was three months old, and I lived in California my whole life.

Aaron Lee  00:28

My name is Aaron Lee, I grew up in the mid Atlantic in Richmond, Virginia. When I was a child, I only knew two Asians one on my little league team and one at school. It wasn’t until I met Jim later in my career that I began to understand those distinctions in real life. One

Jim Lee  00:44

of the things that was hard for me to do is to take my personal experiences and see them objectively, as a Korean that grew up in America, my whole life is full of Asian and Western biases that have created cultural differences that are hard for me to identify by recognizing where those lines are, we hope to navigate through them intentionally. And with less conflict, and more collaboration. We

Aaron Lee  01:05

know our stories, and our biases aren’t unique. And throughout our years of coaching, we found it quite liberating for ourselves and many others to see those biases more explicitly so that we can move more intentionally towards the goals we want to achieve. This is the new generation leader ally ship channel. One of the conversations you and I have had is as dads of girls, what it’s like to lead our kids and lead our families. And as my kids get older, I’m sure you’re the same watching them at certain age takes me back to when I was at that age. So I’m watching my oldest head into middle school second trip down memory lane to the incredibly wonderful awkward years of middle school in your life. Talk about what that experience was like what stands out to you about culture, family experiences, you were interacting with friends at that age?

Jim Lee  01:58

Yeah, it’s interesting, because that was a time when I was starting to, I think get a handle between my Korean identity and my American identity. You’re kind of like 11 years old going into that age. And from elementary school where I started out with like one of three Asians to then adding a few more I remember in third grade, there was another Korean they came in, then in fifth grade, there was another Korean came in. So during that time in like the mid 80s, when I went into junior high school or middle school, like all the elementary schools trying to mining and so there’s a lot more a quantity of Asians in general. And so it’s like a mass, so to speak, right. And maybe we read the time, there were other people that were like me, maybe relate specifically to other Koreans at the time. So for them, it seemed like there are other people that kind of understood my journey, other people that kind of understood those identity challenges that we would have faced, and there was some comfort there that I didn’t have to figure this all out. I don’t think it was explicitly our stories were told that like, we could just be ourselves and not feel so odd or left out. And I remember that time being a stage where I think I could be a little bit more comfortable, which I needed. But I think it led to a little bit more what I would say accident until ish like I was swapping back and forth why wanted to and they were able to kind of follow along with me because they understand that journey. But when it came to relevancy, maybe again, to the mass majority, and to everybody else, I think I was still on, so to speak, right? And so I remember like the close friends that I had tended to be those that didn’t fit the mainstream. And I’m not saying like the popular kids at school, there’s a popular but then there’s the people that get it and then those that just don’t get it because of their life experiences are different than that way. And I think one of the things that for me to reflect upon and understand and your daughter’s lot older than mine, mine’s just turning five, but like what would it look like as a parent kind of walk her through that culture. And even though today, even kindergarten, it’s cool to be Korean. And I think people understand what Korean is Kpop has really taken over the world in a lot of ways and Korean drama and movies are one of those things that like has become a lot more mainstream. Aside from that. I think there’s a little bit more intentionality that she has to do to understand that identity because there’s two ways to look at it. You know, again, for me back in sixth grade I was aware that people saw me differently but I didn’t respond accordingly that may treat that engagement a little bit better. And on the flip side, it’s also how I perceived everybody else is saying Well here I am my grades are good so you’re doing something wrong and saw myself again the story of that meritocracy a little bit more because in elementary school the grading system was not letter grades. It was just got over outstanding s for satisfactory and for knee improvements. So pass fail and neutral but this is the beginning of letter grades. This was like Hey 90% If you get an A your name goes on the wall, a river my mom during open house would call Until one math class, and we didn’t see my name on the board. And she asked, like, why is your name not on the board? And I even read the times that they’re really good. They understand it. They’re smarter than I am. And she’s like, that’s not the case. You just have to study harder, right? So the reinforcement of a meritocracy type of achievement and more of an individualized effort versus the ability to engage with the rest of the people in my class.

Aaron Lee  05:23

How did you start to see difference between people backgrounds, cultures, at that age

Jim Lee  05:30

was some of the things that are interesting as it like one of the Korean Americans that I grew up with who the good friend of mine still today, interestingly enough, he has three older siblings. And I think they kind of had the opportunity to introduce some of these western culture practices. And so I think he was a lot more accepted into the mainstream culture, but also kind of understood my background, I mean, some of the commonalities that we had as we both played violin, and I remember in fifth grade, when we had got fifth grade orchestra was the first time we kind of intercepted and it was like, Oh, hey, like, that’s us, we had that bond. And so that’s the common agent story that he had. But he also has all these other stories, because his siblings were able to kind of introduce them to those Western cultural paradigms, adding those are like one of those things like, Hey, you two people are pretty much the same in a lot of areas. But something looks a little bit different, right? So those are some things like I started noticing some differences there. And then like navigating through the values of his parents were a little bit more open to some of the non academic areas of activities that were going on socially, like birthday parties and sleepovers were a big part of it. Like I wasn’t allowed to go to sleepovers, or like eating over at somebody’s house. My parents had a lot of resistance to that sometimes, like for Asians, it may come off, like why do you have to go to somebody else’s house what you think we can’t teach you and we don’t want them to think like we can house and feed you was part of the stigma in that way. So those are hard, like I didn’t get to go to a lot of sleepovers growing up, right. So then that also further separated my experiences and their experiences in that way. I also remember there was this thing called like the gate program, I don’t know if that’s like everywhere, but we have this gifted and talented education. So as a separate program for students that seem to be more gifted in academia that gave them other experiences. And I remember in sixth grade was when a lot of these like week camps, like we would go into the mountains, and there would be like a overnight cap that we would go. And I think those are like some very eye opening opportunities for me to see like, How do other people sleep? How did other people like set up travel. And that’s the first time I remember like the tent sleeping bag. So my parents went camping and stuff, but then like, how people packed their clothes, and what kind of clothes that they had, like, I just bought the same street clothes. But everybody else had like snow gear, because some of them we used to go skiing and snowboarding and things of that nature, which is for me as an immigrant was not something that in our lifestyle at the time, it was very foreign trust. So remember that one year reciprocals I first time seeing snow but everybody was ready for it was for I like all my clothes are soaking wet, because nothing was like snow ready? And again, it’s like, Oh, why was Jim a little different? Like what we see going through? Those are some areas that like I started recognizing, like, Okay, I’m still different, like, there’s something different about me. But I think also it’s one of those things where you don’t tend to celebrate it because you’re such a minority. And you seem like there’s something wrong with you not necessarily, hey, those differences are just inherent and part of the diversity that you have an opportunity to bring in. And so for when that non relatability and the inability to understand or like where you don’t fit in it. I think it’s also part of that Asian culture, like you always point out what’s different, and you stick out. And so in Asian culture, you don’t want to stick out like a sore thumb versus anything in Western culture can stick out like a sore thumb. But he got also solid braid that as in terms of like a unique value

Aaron Lee  08:45

that it’s interesting, as you talked about that, because it took me back to I think sixth grade. And if I remember, right, it was the OJ Simpson verdict, which obviously when I placed that in my life at sixth grade, I vividly remember one of my classmates and I know now it was sixth grade because Wilbur was in eighth grade. At the time. He wasn’t Asian, as I’ve talked about, I only knew two Asians growing up, and I think Carl had moved to another school for middle school. So in middle school, there weren’t Asians. In my class. The Wilbur was African American, and his connection to the OJ Simpson trial and verdict and outcome was very different from his own life perspective, his own viewpoint and vantage point. And so that’s probably the first time I vividly remember thinking and seeing how Wilbers looking at this current event moment from a different perspective than I am. And I don’t know that I fully understood it at the time. I didn’t have anybody to help me process that as a sixth grader, but I paid attention to it and I filed it away. And since that time, over the last 30 or so years now have continued to add life experiences along with that paid attention to and been more curious as we talked on our last Episode about that being curious about other stories and asking and inquiring, what is it that’s driving and motivating this decision? Or this reaction? Or what are you thinking about when you see this now my daughter’s current experience with some of her classmates. And as she has had good friends we’ve spent time with, she’s grown up, even back to preschool, and all the way through elementary school with many of these friends, same friends, always in the community, and in the same class, celebrating birthday parties, having dinner at their home, living life in community alongside them, and recognizing they’re coming from a different culture perspective. Now, as she’s gone into middle school, we’ve reflected and I think you and I have talked about this some over the last few months. And I’ve talked about this with some of those dads that difference in decision making from when they went to school, one friend in particular, he went to middle school in India. And so for him thinking through what’s this thought process for me, that’s different than the opportunity my daughter’s been presented with. For him, there wasn’t a choice, it was one track, even for his daughter. Now, the values alignment, it was different than the values alignment for us. And it was, as we’ve talked about, about making the grade and having the achievement or success based on academics that led her and lead others to pursue a particular magnet, middle school kind of academic program. Whereas for us, we looked at the community that we live in, and that was the higher priority for our family. And so each family having their own different perspective, but it’s helpful, it’s helpful to think about that, unpack that to ask questions. And I’ve been able to have a good conversation with my friend about the decisions they’re making and what they’re thinking about how they’re processing. And he even came and asked me, he said, You’ve been in this county, you’ve been in the states longer. What do you think? How do you see this? What are the options that our kids have in front of them today?

Jim Lee  11:59

But they did pull out? Right? I think you told me the story, they did decide to go across town to the magnet. And so you can see like it is very hard to kind of defy it that imprint, right that academics is above all things beyond community. So if you think about, like the African proverb of, you know, you can go fast alone, but further together, it’s almost like that doesn’t exist in Asian culture.

Aaron Lee  12:22

So I want to make this a little more personal or ask you a little more personal question. We talked about the academic side in school, and grades and everything’s school based, but step outside of school, you didn’t, you weren’t allowed to do sleepovers. But how about going over to somebody else’s house and that not just sitting down at the same cafeteria table together, but experienced the life inside the four walls of the home of somebody who grew up from a different cultural perspective than you did? Did you have any experiences like that growing up?

Jim Lee  12:54

Oh, yeah, actually, it’s left a big imprint in my life as well, during like the sixth grade, seventh grade in eighth grade years, which was like in middle school, there’s so much growth for me at that time. Part of it also is like my parents bought their deli at the time. So they had to start becoming entrepreneurs and business owners was a huge challenge for them. I think at some point, it was so hard for them to try to, like contain me in that Korean structure that they were okay with that. Eventually, they just kind of had to let me go. So I remember one of those things was I stopped playing violin at sixth grade because I want to go out and play with my friends. And I think that was a hard challenge. But financially, I think it was a little bit more like provided them some relief, because they didn’t have to pay for violin lessons. Stress wise, they didn’t have to keep reminding me to play violin. And I think at the same time, my friends and the relationships that I had, were starting to grow because it was no longer just elementary schools around my block started to add other friends that were the other parts of town. And so since the middle school was a little bit further away, and then just transportation back and forth from school back then, for me was walking Caesars for me to hang out with our friends. That neighborhood is actually one particular friend that I really grew fond of that was Jewish. And where I lived was a lot of Jewish friends and that area, they grow with elementary school as well, this particular friend, and we really got along together, we spent a lot of time mom was actually a teacher at the middle school too. And so we both just like had lunch in her classroom. And we would just talk about the things that we enjoyed and we got along and it got to the point where I think his mom would drop me off at home and intersect with my mom and she asked my mom if I could spend the night at their house on the weekends. Harley was also because they lived far away but then she was a teacher at the school. That’s why she had brought her son to that school but he didn’t have a lot of friends locally in the neighborhood just because he was always being removed from his community kind of like which we were sharing and we spent a lot of time together a lot of summers together slept over this like when my sleep over started happening and I remember slowly like his birthday was in May So the first sleepover was like in May, right? So that’s about eight months after like school started. So did a good job breaking up Harrison, right. But like, during the summers, we spend more time and I do think like on the other side, my parents, it was convenient also to not have to look after me, I did have two younger siblings as well, they were like seven years younger, on average. So huge gap between like my life stage of being in around 12 years old, versus my siblings are starting to go to elementary school. And so it was just easier for them to allow me to go and what was great was I learned about like, just Jewish custom, I would go to temple a lot, I would get a chance and like have, you know lox and bagels after their services we would enjoy like Hanukkah festivals together, you know, go to like Bar Mitzvahs together and stuff like that. So I felt like, in a way, it was great to kind of have that American type of a culture of sleepovers. But outside the same time, I felt like it was a paradigm of I didn’t get really a Western or American culture as much as like a Jewish culture. And so when I looked at that relationship, and what it did was it built a bridge, though, in a way of what I had in one home culture to see another home culture that was drastically different. And in that culture, also, like he got to speak up, he got to have conversations with mom sometimes arguments. So that was like, wow, like, how’s that occurring? Because I would have that conversation home, I’d be dead. I do remember, as a kid being kicked out house many times sleeping on the porch, because of like, you know, I talked back, which was maybe a word or two or a sentence at most. And so I think those are things areas that kind of open the paradigms and seeing like how their relational dynamics can occur between parents and their children, as well as how other people live lives in a way. Yeah, it’s just one of those things that I felt like those middle school years, hey, having access to a lot of different people, and finding those friends that kind of aligned, I think, maybe not so much with the same culture, but the same values that you had and curious about each other and those relationships? Well,

Aaron Lee  16:56

it’s interesting thinking about not only your experience, much your parents experience, and there’s something about the parenting journey that from wherever your family of origin has brought you to this point, as the parent of a now almost teenager, it’s a shift, and your kids are starting to exercise their own personality, while also exploring the world around them. And so you as a parent have to adapt and react to that what kind of community connection beyond your friend’s mom did your parents have in terms of their own personal relationships, friendships, community connections, during that phase of your life, a big

Jim Lee  17:34

strong part of a lot of Korean immigrants at the time was the church. And I don’t think it was as much of a faith or religious community, it was just where a lot of other Koreans got together. And they went through the church like practices as a way, and I think a lot of them didn’t know anything else either. So they just kind of this is what you do as a Korean American. And this is where I go to find my network. And this is how I also have access to like figuring things out, so to speak. And so that was their community. But because where we live, there weren’t a lot of Koreans. And the churches that we went to were kind of far away. Like I do recall, around that age, we used to drive probably 45 minutes each way to just to go to church. And a lot of the Sunday evenings were their time to kind of go to a church friend’s house, and they would all hang out, have dinner together and talk and then all the kids would get together upstairs and play in their rooms and play with the toys or whatever that they had at the time. But I do recall that was their only source of information that in the newspaper. So there’s a little bit of a joke where like, your mom will at least come to you and say hey, you should do this. Because I read this in the newspaper. Back in the day when our parents were probably your parents might say like, Hey, I saw this for the tablets or something. So it’s kind of like gossip true, so to speak. But it’s just that was there a community locally, not much. They owned a coffee shop, and they learned how to do chit chat because they had to when they welcome customers and greet people. But literally they didn’t have relationships with their customers that were more like friendships, it was just a straight business type of a transaction. Whereas from what I’ve seen in more Western culture, like you have loyal customers that are friends, and you get to know each other, and you ask about like, Hey, how’s little Johnny doing and how’s Christy doing? How are they doing at school? There’s a little pinch personal interest in it. But I don’t think it was one of those things that my parents knew how to do, or to create a relationship in that way.

Aaron Lee  19:28

It’s interesting that you say that because my parents had similar experiences. We had a few neighbors right around us, but for the most part, the connections happen through the church. And that was more about going and for my parents survey and volunteering in some way less about friendship and community and bridge building. And so I think as I look back through the rest of my middle school, high school journey, there were those individuals who my parents got to know my dad’s coworkers As his co workers became more diverse as the company was bringing in contractors from multiple Asian countries, he would have stories about their culture and the conversations they would have at work. My mom taught English as a Second Language primarily to first generation Asian immigrants into our community. So we would talk about their stories, but there was still kind of a distance, it didn’t really feel like it was an integral part. It wasn’t up close. One of the things I wrote about in the new generation leader was the few couple of times I have distinct memories of sitting down for a meal at the home of someone whose culture, his background was different than me not meeting at a restaurant not meeting at church, but in their home at their kitchen table eating in following their customs and habits and own family rhythms. So I didn’t have a lot of that experience through middle school. And I remember looking ahead in that journey into high school, that was where I kind of was most insulated. And that was the part of my educational journey, where I feel like I was most attuned to, there’s me, and there’s people from other backgrounds. And that was probably the greatest distance for me, because by the end of high school, I was having purposefully and intentionally more cross cultural interactions throughout our community throughout the world doing that more intentionally. But at the end of middle school, and in high school, I was seeing the difference. And not at all thinking about the bridge building that we had an experience. Just last week, at a middle school, the school had a sporting event, and the other team from the other side of the county has a very different demographic makeup than the school my daughter goes to not very different, you see the difference when you put these two teams next to each other. And there were cultural distinctive dynamics coming out from the cheerleaders of the other school that just looked different. And so you can read it on the faces of the middle schoolers paying attention. And it was going both ways. They were looking at each other thinking, What are you doing over there both ways. And so I think that’s something that in the 21st century, now, in the world we live in, especially in this art community, I have to imagine it to some extent present in your community and in other communities as well. We have more global awareness. Because of the advances in media and technology that doesn’t make it personal, though, we’re at least more aware. And through that awareness, we have an eye towards being more intentional with discussion and dialogue about what did you notice with my daughter about that experience at the football game? What do you see? What did you notice what stood out to you? What would you be curious about if you were to meet one of those cheerleaders and have a conversation, ask them explore all of those kinds of things, I feel like come to mind for us, not necessarily that we’re perfectly doing them. But at least we’re thinking in that way. Whereas I didn’t have even an environment to have that experience much less to reflect on that experience. When I was that age. Yeah,

Jim Lee  23:03

I kind of feel like when I was growing up, I wanted to be invited to something that I felt like everybody had a chance to enjoy and explore. But there wasn’t a space, or maybe an invitation to do. So maybe I didn’t need an invitation. So I didn’t step in. But at the same time, it felt so different. And for like my daughter, as I think as she gets into junior high school, and is going to have a whole slew of more people that she has to engage with. And then let alone all the physiological changes with hormones and puberty and having to deal with that, at the same time. It creates for us a landscape that’s constantly shifting. But as a father, I think I’m trying to be keen on to not perpetuate what my parents did with me, because those times are actually different from today’s times. But I think applications really, though, similarly is how do you engage with your community a lot more intentionally, and actually build an opportunity for her to feel included and see what is around her so that she can engage and allow her to not feel like she was lacking any type of experience that she might have wanted. Growing up. As

Aaron Lee  24:10

I look around the landscape of our region, there’s much more of an eye from many different cultural backgrounds to celebrate publicly food festival, a cultural festival that’s much more accessible today than it ever was, in the years when we were growing up. I see

Jim Lee  24:27

a lot of companies they had that right. And you’ll see you might have in your office Asian Heritage Month celebration, or there’s black history month there Hispanic month, we just finished Filipino month. And I think there’s a lot of times when people are confused, like why do we need that? Why isn’t there like Italian American month or like all these other ones? And I’m not saying that those aren’t necessary, but I think in order for people to really create a space for those that may not be familiar with it. The different type of cultures that you’re not used to that typically aren’t played out in media. Typically might not have been a common exposure for most people that have grown up, it provides a little bit of a curiosity factor that it’s not so foreign, that you’re starting conversations from scratch. Or you may feel awkward because your ignorance too, but if you can lead into some of those, and even I do, because like some of these other cultures I’m not familiar with, it provides that ability to build those bridges. And wherever I want to become a leader, I know how to practice the ability to have conversations, practice curiosity, and allow myself to allow other people to bring their full selves into the conversation as well. And allow those differences to not necessarily always be seen as a challenge, because I don’t understand it, or I don’t know where they’re coming from. But it’s an opportunity for me to grow to say there are different people that solve problems in a different way. And maybe there’s elements or those that we can apply to and allow to have a more robust solution that not only caters to the majority of the crowd can also be more inclusive to some of the people that are in the fringes, what

Aaron Lee  26:03

would you say to people who might be curious, but aren’t wired the way you’re wired to walk up to a stranger and strike up a conversation?

Jim Lee  26:13

Are you though I’m worried that way doesn’t make it any easier. But I think it’s just the humility to share your intent. And just to be able to come with a posture like I want to know is great. So I always tell people, that’s a great thing for you to say, to say, hey, I don’t know anything about your culture. And I’m sorry, I’m curious, would you give me like five minutes to help me to understand some of these things that I don’t know. And coming with that posture sounds like you are someone with the growth mindset you’re so in that the other person probably wants to spend more time with and you’re somebody that they would probably want to follow versus someone that just doesn’t want to know, doesn’t care to now and doesn’t see the relevancy of it and not just even being open to seeing could there be something that is beneficial for mutually to be able to share?

Aaron Lee  27:01

One of the challenges I feel like exists in that curiosity is sometimes a posture on the other side of the conversation that tends to feel closed off to that inquiry, because you should know something about my story, you should know something already about my background, my experience, because it’s one of the big three or big four. And I’d say in there are only four. The challenge, though, is look simply at the number of countries around the world, you’re already at nearly 200 different variations purely by country, and then you break down regions and geographies and religions and faiths and language differences will now you’re exponentially growing. So how do we keep building that bridge? As we’ve talked about on both sides, both sides wanting to build the bridge when there might be a hesitancy of someone who’s from a different background than us? Yeah,

Jim Lee  27:55

it’s kind of interesting when you freeing up that way, at least for Asians, right? You look at the world population and China and India are like the one in two populous countries of the world. In a way numerically, we can say like non Asians are the minority in the world. However, to have the posture to say that I want to learn and maybe take ownership of that and not let the one person that you talk to you come off that maybe there is a hesitancy realistically for most Asians, they probably don’t want to share because they haven’t had permission to do so. And culturally, they also feel hierarchically. They’re on the lower caste in a way or a lower class. Just because we are a minority don’t take their difference and desire to respect that distance as also a way to like be worried about what advantage but continue to persist to be curious. And YouTube has a lot of different videos that also introduce you to some of these things. I think they’re great ways to kind of do some homework before you do. But I don’t think it should replace the human component of having a dialogue with someone and even sharing what you’ve learned or what you think it is, but allowing an expert in that field to provide you their own perspective of some of those things, and how much of it is actually true or realize that hey, maybe not all Chinese people are very similar in that way and allow other people to tell their own story.

Aaron Lee  29:15

Our friend, Dr. Blackburn watched an introduction to her series on LinkedIn talking about Asian culture. And the introduction alone was eye opening for me, after as many conversations as we’ve had, I still learn. And so as we talk about four leaders, and those of us developing our skills for all of us, it’s a lifelong journey of growth and development. We want to continue learning and we can’t ever know all of it because there’s just so much in our world to know no one of us can know it all. And so to be curious, to ask questions to explore, and I’ve always said let’s sit down at the table because at a table we can have a conversation over a meal where we become peers. We’re sharing the very same meal at the same place at the same time. Time. And that’s a great place to start that journey of discovery, asking good questions, being curious and answering the questions that come from the other side of the table so that it is truly a two way street. Yeah, it

Jim Lee  30:11

can seem overwhelming, even though you may never talk at all. That’s not the goal. The goal is by being curious and taking one step at a time that it makes us better. It’s not your goal is to automate the other person better, but you become better by taking little steps to be able to introduce yourself to different thoughts, different ideas, different people and learning to have those communication patterns to understand and Dr. Blackburn’s LinkedIn learning series that she has on understanding how to even work with Asians or at least Asians in the workplace, fabulous start, and this is probably one of the most gracious ways to not watch it and feel like interrogated that you’re doing everything wrong. But it really comes from a posture of wanting to build a bridge for you. So highly recommended. And I’m sure to get that link in the show notes for that as well. Absolutely.

Aaron Lee  30:55

We’ll link to that in the show notes at New Generation leader.fm. Well, the middle school years are awkward, they’re uncomfortable. They’re not fun for anyone. But thanks for sharing a little bit of your story and experience that season of life. And I hope as you reflect on how to ask good questions, who you need to reach out to what that looks like to start a discussion and a dialogue that she’ll see somebody in your life in your world who you can ask a question of whether it’s at school at work in your neighborhood at the store somewhere in your life, we hope you’ll ask a good question. Start a conversation and dialogue and be curious about the world around you. Well, thanks, Jim. We’ll see it when we dive into the next chapter of this story on our ally ship channel.

Jim Lee  31:39

Looking forward to it. Thank you.