Banks walk a delicate tightrope today: they need to be engaging to attract and retain customers across generations, but also maintain a fortress-like security to combat fraud.
National Exchange Bank and Trust cracked the code on increasing engagement, building a strong customer base, and keeping customers’ wallets safe.
Tammy Pitts and Tami Christian of National Exchange Bank and Trust join Dr. Tom Nebel, founding partner of Leaders Rising Network, to discuss how the bank has transformed its culture by embracing the 5 Voices framework to develop more engaged, empowered, and collaborative leaders.
Their discussion provides valuable insights for any organization looking to foster a more engaged, high-performing culture through the power of self-awareness and intentional leadership development.
———————–
=================
Lead Local Presented by Leaders Rising Network
Tami and Tammy discuss the power of the 5 Voices. Discover Your Leadership Voice today with the free assessment.
———————–
=================
Show Outline
- 0:00 – Leadership development and culture change in a bank.
- 5:29 – Leadership roles and communication styles in a financial organization.
- 11:03 – Vulnerability, self-awareness, and trust in a bank’s leadership team.
- 15:13 – Leadership development, employee engagement, and embedding GiANT tools in the organization.
- 19:40 – Employee engagement and culture building at a bank.
- 24:34 – Leadership, compliance, and teamwork.
Quotes from the Show
- “Engagement has become increasingly critical to the overall success of any organization, especially a bank because you’re challenged with so many different demographics where you need to provide care. But you also have to have Guardian tendencies to watch out for fraud.”
- “I fell in love with the language very quickly. Tom and I, being wired very similarly, had a good connection. I really knew that this had the potential to very quickly make an impact, not only for the organization but for individuals as well.”
Full Transcript – Episode 68
Tammy Pitts 0:00
engagement has become increasingly critical to the overall success of any organization, especially a bank, because you’re challenged with so many different demographics where you need to provide care. But you also have to have Guardian tendencies to watch out for fraud.
Jay Smack 0:16
Welcome to the new generation leader podcast, we’re giving you the tools you need to lead in the digital world, ready to reach your true potential. This is the new generation leader podcast.
Aaron Lee 0:32
Very Christian, take us back to your pre Giant Days, what was the bank culture and environment like that set the stage for, hey, it’s time to get some outside help here.
Tami Christian 0:45
I’ve been with the bank for about nine years. So when I came, they actually hired me to kind of make some change in the organization and to really be looking at developing talent putting coaching and people management kind of more at the forefront than what it had been previously. So it was, you know, pretty much what you would expect a bank to be like very conservative and in culture, very, very customer focused, I mean, so much so that sometimes it’s to the detriment of the employees, right, like we just put our customers so much out in the front, when I came, I did a lot with just observing, wanted to jump in with both feet and just make change and realize that we had to take a little bit more of a slow and steady approach if we were going to be effective and make any kind of real, meaningful change in that space. So started out just kind of understanding the lay of the land. And then an opportunity arose for us at one of our branch manager meetings. So if you know a bank environment, we have like a little over 30 branches. So we bring all these managers together who are people leaders, to talk about different things on a quarterly basis. And we have this opportunity to say, hey, we need to really change the way that we lead, the way we look at ourselves, the way we look at how we engage with the people in our organization, we need to treat the people in our organization with as much respect and engagement and relational harmony as we do with our customers. And so we had the opportunity to bring Tom nibblin from the leaders ride is in network and really talk to our leaders about hey, how do you see yourself we had a lot of fun in space time was very dynamic, as always jumping in talking to us, really engaging the team. And from there, what we saw from that was so significant that we decided we would engage with giant and with the leaders rising network to really bring that out further into the organization, starting with our managers, you know, obviously lead yourself first. And so we brought it to our managers. And then we got so much traction with that we really brought it out to the rest of the organization. And so in that process, Tammy Pitts joined us. And she’s dedicated to talent management. And she’s really been able to take that vision and move it forward in a very meaningful way. Tammy
Aaron Lee 3:09
Pitts coming to you. What was it like coming in partway through that journey? What did you see when you stepped into the bank culture wise, for the first time and experience some of this new language?
Tammy Pitts 3:21
Well, I came from the healthcare environment. So I came from an environment where employees are wired, to be very empathetic, very nurturing, very caring, and not that bank employees aren’t. But one of the biggest issues we face in banking is fraud. And so while we’re trying to build good customer relationships, we’re also trying to keep them safe and look out for fraud. So you have to, you know, at some times, look for the worst that could happen. So that was a big shift for me going from, you know, let anyone in, let’s take a look at you too. You know, we got to be careful why why do you want to do this? You know, how would you get this information? So when I came in the the giant language hadn’t permeated across the organization yet, but it was very well received by the branch managers that Tammy talked about. And I, you know, I took the approach I, you know, to just listen and take it all in, I think one of my first days was a meeting with Tammy and Tom and we were talking about implementing, I think it was x Corp at the time, but basically a program for the managers. And I have to tell you, I’ve you know, being in human resources field for over 20 years, Tammy has been in it longer than me, we don’t have to say any more numbers beyond that. So I’ve been around a lot of, you know, Myers Briggs disc, all the different assessment and I have to tell you, as I’m sitting there listening to this, of course, I’m analyzing it and I’m I’m thinking, How does this compare and is this going to be effective? I fell in love with the language very quickly and if Of course, Tom Tom and I being wired very similarly, that was a good connection. I really knew that this had potential very quickly to make an impact not only for the organization, but for individuals as well. Tom,
Aaron Lee 5:15
you coming in to the bank from from the outside fresh eyes fresh perspective, related to the bank, but obviously decades of life and leadership experience coming in? What did you notice in those early days,
Dr. Tom Nebel 5:29
I would notice, although I was a rookie, in, in the giant realm, but but very enthusiastic about it in my own journey, it was like, wow, I wish I would have this in my previous career, then I was like, I wish I could be this. And then I was like, I don’t know if I want to really be this transparent and forthright and you know, vulnerable to, hey, I really do want to do this. But when I came in, I have to say, I was astounded. When we did initial work with leaders and managers, I was astounded at how many nurturers there were inside National Exchange Bank. And I know the standard number across the world is 43%. I think it was more than that, Tammy, Christian, I’m trying to remember how we originally looked at it, I was like, Oh, just doesn’t compute for me, I would have thought much more guardian. And that’s for sure there. But I would say that was my surprise, until people started to say, think about a time relational trust matters so much specially with all these branches in the small town branch managers in the face of the bank, being a person that they can trust and was truly empathetic. And I would just say, that was a big notice for me. And I would just say, honestly, you’re around the three of us long enough. And you’re gonna say, Wow, the three of you really did grow up together. Although we each have fantastic resumes and history, the three of us really grew up together, learning this in various different ways, and then looking for ways to bring it into into an organization.
Aaron Lee 6:58
It’s interesting how those voice percentages play out from what we expect in the population versus what we see in health care, nurses and caretaker roles, I often see are much higher in nurturers and your right time. I think when we consider a financial role, we want the management of the dollars and cents to be a guardian. But you’re right with the shift and expectation. That’s not the end all be all. It’s the relationship for those working in the branches and interfacing with people I think about my mother in law, who spent her entire career working her way up as a small local bank became bought up by a regional bank by mid atlantic bank by National Bank, she is the quintessential nurturer and was well loved by everyone she worked with in Treasury services, all of their clients just absolutely adored her. But none of the three of you are nurturers. Tammy and Tammy, talk to me about your interaction and how being as we would call it, Nemesis voices, how did that benefit or challenge you as you begin working to roll this out across the bank? Well,
Tami Christian 8:04
that’s interesting, you should bring that up. Because both Tom and Tammy are connector creatives. And I’m Guardian pioneers. So you can imagine I was outnumbered from the start. At first, we might have been a little challenged by it. Right? Where are you coming from? Are you going to land? You know me? I’m always like, are you going to land this soon time? Or are we going to figure out where we had and and then realize that we could bounce ideas off of each other so easily, right? And was like, what about what about right? And pretty soon we realized how much we really complement each other so we can get to that maximum complexity. And I can be the one who says, Okay, time out. Let’s now talk about how we want to go forward and how we want to implement that. So we kept our feet on the ground, but we could still be thinking visionary about how are we going to take this forward and giant kind of was in its infancy when we started this like, in some regards. We were saying we need this next thing and giant didn’t quite have it yet. So we are collaborating at the ground level and figuring out well, how do we move this forward?
Tammy Pitts 9:11
I think we’ve come to be the best connect or guardian team there there is and Tammy and I have known each other professionally in our community both being in different employers in the HR space for a long time. But when you really work with someone day in and day out, you really get to know them at a whole different level. And I think that’s been the biggest aha for me is really working to you know, number one appreciate having the opposite voice. I think we you know, we all know that we’ve got to complement ourselves with someone that thinks differently than us. But really being able to manage that day to day and being comfortable having the language and bringing support and challenge to each other. So that’s been a such a growth for me. You know, I thought I had I figured out when I came here, when I was maybe close through working with Tom and Tammy as well as just learning from others and implementing, you know, the the materials, I’ve learned so much about myself.
Tami Christian 10:15
And you know, I think that we have been able to use our story on how we’ve grown together through this process with the rest of our organization, because if you think about it, yes, we have a lot of nurturers who are taking care of our customers. But on the sales side, our lenders, their connectors, right, they want to be out in front of people, they want to be talking and connecting with people. And so we naturally have those Nemesis voices, so to speak within our organization based on the types of positions that we fill, right. And so when we can use our story to say how we’ve grown and use the tools to make our relationship stronger, better than the rest of the organization is kind of seeing that and kind of understanding, Oh, that makes perfect sense for all of us. Right?
Dr. Tom Nebel 11:03
Let me illustrate something along those lines. Because the applause I have for you, I’m thinking about how you would go first in terms of being real, being vulnerable and putting things out there. And I distinctly remember time, Tammy, when we had our very first maybe second meeting, no, I think it was the first meeting. But we’re calling people to some vulnerability about self preservation, there was a palpable lack of trust in that room, because people wondered, Where would this go? I’d be we’d be strangled with this. But I remember it was you, you, Tammy, and then another colleague of ours, Nicole, we’re opening up and telling some real vulnerabilities. And it really opened up and unlock the room. And, Aaron, if you could have been at another meeting, when Tammy Pitts had said, Okay, I’m going live. And she got up to the microphone and said, Okay, I’m gonna tell you some things. And it was, I don’t know, they’re about 60 liters. We’re at a golf course, conference room there. And when Tammy opened up, it changed the dynamic of trust in that room in an incredible way, at which point the president of the bank of the time stood up, and he said, Okay, we want to thank Tammy for showing us how to do it. So there was applause. But those were seminal moments, where these two ladies showed one another how to do it. And I love that your story continues. But it was that display of vulnerability and self awareness that were really Earth shakers, in terms of the cultural development,
Aaron Lee 12:27
as you look across the bank, and you’ve learned your voices. And you’ve recognized as you described, to me, the connectors on the sales side nurtures in those branch positions. How did those two segments begin to interact in a healthier, clearer way? With other voices in leadership?
Tami Christian 12:47
I think that’s a good question. I think that learning to be vulnerable has been really critical, because people will put themselves out there. It’s less preservation, self preservation going on, I just see more open dialogue going on, I see people being able to laugh at themselves a little bit, you know, which again, creates that relationship first, I can’t fail. I mean, I’m a guardian pioneer like that is huge to me, right? Like I cannot fail. But when I start saying, Hmm, maybe you don’t know everything, and maybe somebody else can help me and we start putting ourselves out there. I think that changes a lot. Her leadership team is comprised of quite a few guardians, we have a couple pioneers a little spattering here and there of connectors. So I think as they’ve learned a little bit more about themselves, they’ve made it a little bit easier for the rest of the leaders in the organization to reach across lines to be vulnerable. And to kind of break down barriers.
Dr. Tom Nebel 13:45
Yeah, actually, I’ve got to, I’ve got a great illustration of what you were just saying there, Tammy, and it relates to an online meeting that we had a couple of years ago. And I remember it was with your your top team at the bank, and we were going through some constructs and so on, and in talking about how voices relate to one another. Now, again, this is at the executive management level. And we were moving on I remember it was a remote meeting. I remember exactly where I was when the meeting was taking place. And then the president of the bank at that time, Jim, he stopped me and he stopped us and he says, Oh, hold on just a second everybody. He says I’m doing some sober reflection right now. Jim was a Guardian as a so many, so many leaders would be on a regulated industry like the bank, but he said I’ve just been reflecting on how I’ve undermined connectors over the last several years. And he said we’d lost a couple of good ones this last year wonder retirement wonder relocation, I really wish that I had not undervalued them the way that I should have, because of how critically important they were to the extent of the bank success. And he said, Honestly, I want to do things differently going forward. Looking
Aaron Lee 14:55
back over these last few years, you’ve now built the culture You’ve made this a part of the DNA of National Exchange Bank, how are you keeping it strong, and continuing to onboard new team members into an existing strong culture,
Tammy Pitts 15:13
one of the things that we do is we make sure every new employee takes the five voices assessment, and they begin talking about their profile report with their manager. Another thing we started doing over time is every manager does individual one to one meetings with their employees, we focus the leadership development on they are Sherpas, they’re developers of people. So embedded in those one to one meetings are all the support and challenge at a personal and professional level to develop them. It’s kind of at both ends, right? The leadership development and also every new employee that comes in. So we do a regular onboarding with new employees. Every employee goes through it, and I do a presentation with them, which follows hammies presentation somewhat, she talks about the organization makeup, the strategy, and I talk about what we’ve called Team essentials, which is our brand name for all things giant and I talked about why why we do it what it is, and I dabble a little bit in five voices and and some of the other tools that we use. So it’s intentional on both sides, with new employees coming in and in developing our leaders. Well,
Tami Christian 16:30
to tag on to that, you know, we do employee engagement surveys, and we just recently did a survey with our organization. And we’re using now some of the language and tools from giant in helping to do action planning with our managers. So we’re really trying to integrate that into our culture and really make that common language, right. It’s kind of a shortcut for us to be able to get to outcomes much more quickly.
Tammy Pitts 16:55
You know, I’m glad you brought that up. To me having a survey, you know, we implemented doing employee engagement surveys three years ago now doing that, along with the team essentials, or giant material really gave us some hard numbers to focus on and show how it was working. And now we can transition to more execution and alignment and capacity, rather than just focusing on communication relationships. You know, that’s great. We understand that we’re using language now what now we’re solving problems and leveraging strengths. Well,
Aaron Lee 17:27
that’s fantastic. You took the question right out of my mouth, I was gonna say what’s different now solving problems, leveraging strengths? You know, I was reading one of our team members highlighted a book a few weeks ago that said, leaders who have weekly one on one meetings with their teams, increase employee engagement by 20%. Think it wasn’t a specific kind of one on one meeting, it was just have that regular rhythm. And so combining that with common language, it sounds like it’s been a game changer for the bank.
Dr. Tom Nebel 18:00
It definitely has.
Aaron Lee 18:03
Tom, as you leaned in and started working with the bank, walk us through what that structure really looked like from a programmatic offering perspective. How did you engage with the bank?
Dr. Tom Nebel 18:14
Yeah, we started out, which would not be an uncommon place to start, which would be considered like training space, where you’re putting a whole bunch of people in the room. And you know, they’re getting information, you got the talking head, you’ve got the workbooks. And that’s where Tammy was referring. Yeah, Tom was good at this. I can stand in front of a microphone, we were starting to implement some things. And then the question was, well, you know, we might not need you for too long time. You know, I mean, after this. And what was interesting, though, I remember a conversation that we had, where we looked at a tool that we call, it’s called intentional multiplication, and it just looks at all the different ways you need to multiply to see a full force multiply ever happened. And it has to do with everything from apprenticeship with a few people to, you know, what you might call coaching groups, and then you go up a little bit further to that training space. And then you know, the the wide reach keynote kind of things. And honestly, when the Tammy and I were looking at this, we were going, you know, we know that we can’t let this just be flavor of the day, we’ve got to embed this. So what we did is we stayed in some training space, but then we started to implement other things. And I don’t know Tammy, you might remember Tammy Pitts, who might remember but I started to do a lot of a handful anyway, of kind of one on one things, working with particular executives that we wanted to wanted to really serve well, and we were doing that but then we started to implement core groups and things like that. So that’s structurally how it was going Aaron and then over time, the bank has become less dependent on me and more embracing and using our electronic platform. Because ultimately, that’s what we want. We want people to self serve us.
Tammy Pitts 19:52
One thing, you know, when we were working with the managers and we were rolling out the material, there was an AHA that everybody needs this. And that was one thing. I think what we did at that point, we were about three quarters of the way through the material with the managers. And we told them, we’re going to roll this out to all employees now. So you’re going to be delivering this material. And that is one point in time, I wish I could go back to and do differently, because everyone’s at a different place and comfort level in our culture was also getting used to being vulnerable. Yeah, so we had some roadblocks, you know, COVID, as well, but it allowed us to do a little bit of a reset and approach it from, you know, what problem are we trying to solve? And then apply the tools appropriately?
Dr. Tom Nebel 20:37
By the way, great comment there, Tammy? Because I was thinking about what COVID did, if nothing else, it showed it showed the bank that a lot of things could be done digitally, right or electronically, that whereas previously, we had been we’d really been stuck on in person delivery. I think that was part of the reset. Also,
Tammy Pitts 20:58
it sure was and it gave people a little bit more comfort. And well, we might not get this right the first time, but we’ve got to do something.
Aaron Lee 21:05
How do you quantify success in what you’ve been working on in building the culture at national exchange these last few years?
Tammy Pitts 21:15
Well, one of the basic measures in the HR space and measuring the effectiveness of your people, people strategies is your employee engagement surveys. And it’s important to understand that employee engagement is more than just satisfaction. Yes, I like my job, I like my manager, I get paid well, and the story, it’s a two way relationship. And I think we’ve seen that in industry changes as well. We’ve gone from the industrial revolution to more of a relation ship based industry now. And we’ve got to be able to do things very quickly. So engagement has become increasingly critical to the overall success of any organization, especially a bank, because you’re challenged with so many different demographics, you need, as I said before, you need to provide care. But you also have to have Guardian tendencies to watch out for fraud. Our engagement surveys we’ve been doing now for about three months, we use an outside vendor to ensure anonymity, and to really get that unbiased overview of the results. And so I was very thankful that our leadership was willing to put in the, the resources and the time in order to study that. So our overall engagement, we’ve had some significant increases, you know, every survey measures a little bit differently. So in measuring engagement items, what I own and how I describe engagement is the extent to which employees are willing to go above and beyond and execute discretionary effort, it’s more than just a job. It’s the relationship with the community, with your employer, with your co workers. And we’ve heard, you know, a lot of studies over time, what contributes to that, and a lot of that is the manager. So we are seeing nice increases in our overall engagement, we went up by tenths of a point, which doesn’t I know, doesn’t sound like a lot. But traditionally, in employee engagement surveys, once you reach a certain point, it’s very hard to to get, you know, substantial increases, you might increase very small amount. So we started out with a good score, I was expecting maybe just an incremental increase, but we had a larger increase than than what I had expected expected. And I look at specifically look at the relationship with the manager scores. And that consistently is almost 100% favorable, you know, the studies say it, we’re seeing it in our results. It’s working organizationally, and as a bank, we continue to have a very solid balance sheet, we’ve been successful even in this market with interest rates rising. And it all goes back to valuing the relationship between our employees and with our customers. And so we understand that relationships stand the test of time, there’s a lot of things getting thrown at us right now in banking, that not only just the interest rates, increase regulation, the fraud is just coming at us left and right. Being able to have really healthy relationships internally and get engagement not just compliant is been a big contributor of of our success.
Aaron Lee 24:34
Well, that’s something we hear a lot in any regulated industry, is that word compliance. And we talk about it from a leadership perspective that we want to move people from compliant leadership, whether it’s guidelines and regulations or just simply expectations and, and call them up to the possibilities of let’s engage, come have a seat at the table. Use your voice Whatever your voice is, and weigh in, tell us what’s going on. And so often we see those gaps that as we talked about earlier, the gaps between voices and in your context, branches versus executive leadership. If the voice isn’t heard, then everything that’s coming down is compliant, oriented, and not engagement oriented. And if if we could raise engagement, that’s a game changer. Well, Timmy, and Sammy, thank you so much for your time today. It’s always good to hear from the Tamizh at National Exchange Bank, I’ve heard you talk a lot through the years about National Exchange Bank. Today, it was my first conversation with the Tamizh. It’s almost like folklore, hearing about them so much. And now. Now, here we are, walk us through what what you’ve seen throughout your experience with national exchange,
Dr. Tom Nebel 25:55
I’m going to start just by thinking through the lens of self preservation, and it just means I’m in the room, there’s stuff I want to prove. They’re stuff that that I want to hide, there’s, there’s, there’s those kinds of things, but so is everybody else. And I would just say, I’m thinking on myself. And when I think back to the earliest days, all the self preservation, I had a wanting to prove myself, and being really careful and not as free to be me, because of my own internal internal fears. But I was also thinking about Tammy Pitts, now she was brought in to be the talent development specialist. And I remember, I don’t know, it was a very first or second meeting, when when we were together with with Kami Christian. And CAMI Pitts was so good at being open with her own self preservation, she looks at me as this consultant, and she says, I’m afraid because I feel like you’re taking my work away from me. And as soon as she said that, you know, just invited my own transference, I’m afraid because if you all don’t need me, I can make a living, right. But all we had to do was get that out there and then open up into that space of Wait, we’re like ants fighting over an elephant, we got a lot of work to do here. And we’re gonna put that in the rearview mirror. That was one thing I was thinking is just how, like an HR department, you could understand how they might be concerned, maybe they’d be happy with book of the month, right? Or, hey, everybody watched this video or sending people to trainings, but they might be threatened by a cultural development specialist to be in there. But in this case, once we got past those early, the early rumbles on that it was just so powerful, powerfully evident how much they needed me, but how much I needed them, and how in the process, we just became the best versions of ourselves. And true to form, these are some of my best friends. I mean, ever, to the degree that that clients become friends,
Aaron Lee 27:51
that’s a great perspective on on that relationship and the high level of trust that we get into with people because, you know, most of the clients that we work with, have such a high view on their work, and their level of excellence and their investment in that. And so when anyone comes in questioning your work, or raising a new perspective, or shining a light, maybe on the cobwebs in the shadows were Oh, I was I was trying to keep that off the radar of everybody else that can be uncomfortable, you know, out of that discomfort. I was talking to one of our team earlier about discomfort, and just how much transformation and break through there can be when we do get uncomfortable, we can then translate that back to every interaction going forward. Once we take that first step of being uncomfortable,
Dr. Tom Nebel 28:48
that’s that’s really well said, Aaron, could I ask you like, as you’re watching the three of us interact? Was there anything else you picked up on?
Aaron Lee 28:55
Yeah, you know, with the five voices first conversations can always give you an impression of what someone’s voice might be. I could sense in that conversation. Between the three of you. There was a maturity and an experience, there was a balance of the voices, that each of you were able to bring the natural energy of your primary voice. But you had so balanced and refined that natural first voice with the other voices. I’ve met a lot of guardian pioneers throughout the years. Some of them aren’t the most comfortable people to be around. And I did not get one ounce of that from from Tammy Christian, Sammy Pitts on the flip side, you know, showing showing her connector colors, but in a measured kind of way. And there’s ways that each of them I could see mirror, hear each other, but have an openness, a willingness to hear every voice that’s really important in a team to understand all the voices, understand those perspectives and actually invite others He says to speak up and speak out. Yeah,
Dr. Tom Nebel 30:02
actually, Aaron, you’re calling up something which I’m gonna go back a few years, but it was when the one the three of us in over there that we just at the bank, they call us t to the third. And that’s how we will communicate with each other, hey, we need a T three meeting. But I remember we would meet at various places to sort of idea what was going to be next and there was a branch branch boardroom, we were meeting in one time. Cami Christian, you know, the the Guardian pioneer. She’s, she’s with Tammy Pitts and me and we are ping pong in ideas, you know, bing, bing, bing, it was like being stuck in a nuclear reactor. to her credit, she did not run from that or shut us down. She would just say things like, Hold on. Let’s not boil the ocean. You know, she’d have to take a breath and those kinds of things. But it was I think it was because she was in the power position, not only in strength of voice but also in her role at the bank where she could have just stifled us. But instead, she said she did two things at once. I want to hear it but not at this not at this speed. You know, not in this place. We need to land some things. That was that brilliance? I think that allowed us a lot of us really to thrive and honestly, you know, be friends to this day.
Aaron Lee 31:17
incredible conversation. Thanks, Tom for introducing me to the Tamizh thanks for bringing your voice to the table. Dr. Tom kneeble, founding partner of leaders rising network and Wisconsin’s biggest flying squirrels fan. So thanks, Tom.
Dr. Tom Nebel 31:36
All right. Thank you, Matt. So long, we’ll we’ll
Aaron Lee 31:38
link to the tools and resources that we’ve mentioned throughout this, take the five voices if you haven’t already, and begin your own journey of discovery. We’ll link to all that in the shownotes at New Generation leader.fm Thanks to Dr. Tom Knievel for joining me today. And thanks to Jay Brian and the team behind the scenes. We’ll see you next time.
Jay Smack 31:59
Thanks for listening to the new generation leader podcast. Subscribe today on your podcasting platform. Download the show notes and unlock your true leadership potential at New Generation leader.fm. Thanks for listening today and we look forward to seeing you next time on the new generation leader podcast.